I just called my friend who works there and she didn't even want to talk about it. That is serious and not good for Loveland. I hope people handle this not as a political issue but instead with the sober respect people deserve when discovering they may not only be losing a job but their future career along with it.

I will say a prayer for everyone working at McWhinney's outfit.
--Marge

For the record, Chad told the Council the bold mixed-use development would not work if council refused to support the free public antique trolley.

Careful where you place the blame for their melt-down. The finger might rightly be pointing at you my friend.

You can't make silk from a sow's ear and Chad can't teach Lovelander's how to have some class.
--JJ

Wow, JJ!

So...Chad has to teach Lovelanders class, eh? Well...as they say, EX-CUUUSE US for living here, caring about where and for what our taxes are spent, etc.
I may just be an ol country hick, but I believe in free enterprise. You take the risk, and if you have a good plan and you work hard, and you don't steal anything from anyone else, you deserve to succeed. I don't believe in welfare, and least of all in welfare for millionaires that the City Mgr, his rubber stamp stooges on Council and a few spoiled scions champion.
The proposed trolley was an amusement attraction; not a public improvement. There was nothing akin to a public improvement in the garage either.
So, JJ, maybe YOU'll have to step up and teach us all some class instead, eh? Let us know where and when class begins.
--Carl

The lack of a trolley and classless lovlenders killed the deal? Are you serious? The lack of a large, urban affluent market to support that type of project killed the deal. This thing was dead out of the box regardless of whether it had a trolley or a ferris wheel or midgets to shine your shoes. Gimicks don't make places that create a compelling reason to shop. Well desinged unique places in good locations do. A choo choo in a corn field was a stupid idea from the start. Thank god it's dead and I have no compassion for anyone stupid enough to go work for McWhinney.

Ouch, you people are just demonstrating how little you know about the creative class which is a demographic NO development in Northern Colorado has yet tapped into. The closest experience is probably Pearl Street in Boulder.

Carl, I don't have the space here to educate you but maybe student loans is one government program you should have availed yourself of in the past so you could at least appear literate.

Chad brought quality, class and higher-end shopping to our town and all you people did was complain. Now smart, WELL EDUCATED, and hard working people may loose their jobs.

Not all of us can grow sugar beats for a living Carl. People move to Loveland and want to roll-up the streets and not let anyone else into the city.

I never bring my business associates from out of state to downtown because of all the bums walking around (maybe your cousins Carl?)

We could have been the next Fashion Island, Costa Mesa or Broomfield but instead we are headed downhill just like Ft. Collins.

--JJ

One last item and i will not be reading this again
we never took a dime of city tax dollars. Every penny used by the special districts is generated by shopping that your ugly corn field full of rats could never generate. No Loveland resident ever paid even one dime of taxes to support Centerra or Grand Station so stop telling lies.

Get your facts straight white trash before opening your mouths.
--JJ

JJ, we citizens ARE PAYING for Centerra. It is tacked on everytime we make a purchase out there. Look at your receipt next time you buy anything. I belief the abbreviation is TIF, but I may be wrong.
--Juanita

I heard the county gets for Centerra about the same property tax each year as the average owner of a home valued over $200,000 pays. The rest goes back to McWHinney's LURA.

That doesn't even pay for trash clean-up along feeder county roads now carrying traffic to McWhinneyville. Maintenance, police and traffic control not to mention all the other governmental functions are not free.

Everyone paying for the increasing cost of Larimer County's budget is subsidizing McWhinneyville.

TIF should stand for Tax Inequality Financing
--Angry Taxpayer

Did anyone read the story McWhinney is buying the race track last Decemner in the Tribune? Here is the link to the article http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20071211/BUSINESS/112100153

Rocky Scott is really excited since he started his career as a dog groomer working the dogs on that track.

Imagine, he used to groom dogs before the races and now he grooms McWhinney's image before they fleece us.

They have lots of money i believe and just want to drop some dead weight taking space around their offices.
--Well Groomed

JJ, I wrote the City's LURA founding documents which were originally created for the purpose of establishign a URA downtown where it was intended to be applied by statute and absolutely this mechanism was corrupted by the administration and McW to be applied to your project and the property tax that Lovelanders paid that would otherwise have gone into the general fund of the City, the County and the school district is now being diverted to your project. YOU need to stop telling lies. I assume you are Jay Hardy and you can take your clients with you when you lose your job. Good riddence. Hard to keep things civil here but many of us know better.

No, I am not Jay Hardy. He didn’t bring any clients to McWhinney either – just a good attitude and a willingness to work hard.

You must know then, if you really are familiar with the LURA, that there was a dilapidated building on one parcel that qualified it as blighted and in need of community sponsored renewal programs. There were no rats in the corn it was the structures that legally qualified the property for urban renewal. The agricultural land was producing nothing of value until it was improved by McWhinney unless you consider a “corn festival” a cultural event.

The downtown districts never received ANY increase in taxes (and therefore no TIF dollars) until after McWhinney was successful and attracting more shoppers to the general area. The Trolley would have drawn well healed shoppers from across Colorado as an attraction that would benefit not just Grand Station but also downtown. No other town has a comparable Trolley attraction managed by competent professionals.

When Centerra upscale restaurants are full or people want a more gritty experience, they sometimes will eat downtown at the Chop House or Henry’s. Even Chad and Candy eat at the Chop House time and again to provide some much needed dollars to the poor areas of Loveland. Chad has always given to charity as well for House of Neighborly Service and the other hand-out places for the downtown flop houses.

Anyone familiar with commercial real estate knows downtown is a lost cause. It was only built to service traffic coming up the 287 to Wyoming and Ft. Collins long before the I-25 was ever imagined. Before that, it survived on the railroad and grainer to bring people into downtown. Now it is populated with funky and weird little shops, Top Hat Lounge and other types of typical “Lovaland” hangouts you likely frequent.

People with a college degree (in any study you read) who have money will prefer Centerra over Loveland any day. If you believe in “natural” and not “manufactured” development than why don’t you let downtown continue its slide “naturally” instead of slowing the process down with government intervention?

--JJ

I find the comments on this blog to be harsh and uncalled for in our great little community.

Can't we all just get along?
--Barb

Thanks Barb, I have been reading this website and find the stories very infoirmative. However, I don't care for Mr. JJ's tone and would rather see him promote the good points of Centerra instead of trying to tear down Loveland.

Please make positive comments since both cities need to get along. I am new to the area but find our Loveland City Council to be very unpopular with working people. Maybe they need to stop fighting with Centerra and Johnstown and get all three cities together for some collaboration.

I knew Carol Johnson in Golden and believe she is doing a fantastic job. They need to let her take the lead on organizing community to community rap sessions to find common ground between citizens instead of wasting time fighting.
--Jim Morrison

Centerra is not a city it is part of Loveland. If you and Ms. Johnson waited a little longer to live here before getting involved you would know this. Please stay out of local politics until you at least know what city you live in.
--Don

JJ, the downtown URA never has generated a TIF period, not one penny of sales tax TIF and only a very small margin of property tax TIF. The notion that McW brought an increase is another lie fabricated by Chad and Rocky. I'm not going to debate the merits of downtown with you but look to the north to see what is possible and what people really want, not a contrived choo choo train grand station. JJ, also please keep up your condensending comments because they are doing an excellent job of dragging McW further into a hole of negative public opinion. Keep up the good work. I wonder if Rocky and Jay would like to know about JJ's comments. Maybe I'll forward them on and let him figure out who you are, maybe that will accelerate your departure. You know where you can stick your clients.

The actual situation is described below. Organizational changes always happen in growing companies. McWhinney remains financially strong, and Centerra continues to be a major financial contributor to the City of Loveland, if you check city financial data. Those contributions will continue to grow.

McWHINNEY REORGANIZES FOR FUTURE GROWTH; MEDICAL OFFICE BUILDING II AT CENTERRA BREAKS GROUND

LOVELAND, CO –February 14, 2008 – Following its recent purchase of Anthem Commercial, a 915 acre commercial property at the intersection of I-25 and NW4790 in Broomfield, McWhinney is reorganizing to prepare for its next phase of geographically diversified growth.

Chad and Troy McWhinney remain as co-founders and owners in the company. Changes in leadership positions include assignment of Doug Hill to the position of Principal of Corporate and Investment Services, Rocky Scott to Principal of Strategy & Business Development, Dean Barber to Vice President of Development - Office/Medical & Industrial, and Chris LaPlante to Vice President of Development – Retail and Mixed Use.

“Our philosophy at McWhinney is to align job responsibilities with our associates' strengths. With the substantial growth in opportunities that we are enjoying today at Centerra, Anthem and Garden Grove in southern California, we have reexamined our organizational structure, repositioned our current leadership and initiated efforts to bring in additional leadership talent to take maximum advantage of those opportunities,” said Chad McWhinney, MCWhinney's Chief Executive Officer.

A national search to fill two new top leadership positions, including a Principal of Community Development and a Principal of Commercial Development, is currently underway to complete the current reorganization. Additional openings at McWhinney can be found at www.mcwhinney.com (Join Our Team)

Second Medical Office Building at MCR Breaks Ground

LOVELAND, CO - McWhinney broke ground on February 13 at Medical Office Building II, an 81,000 square foot building connected to Medical Center of the Rockies (MCR). Greeley Medical Clinic will occupy 40,000 square feet and employ approximately 120 staff at the location. The new Medical Office Building is scheduled to open in November 2008.

In addition, McWhinney continues planning for Grand Station at Centerra, a 50-plus acre mixed-use development, and currently anticipates breaking ground on the project this fall.
--Rocky Scott
<mailto:rockys@mcwhinney.com>

To the blog host, is this site really set up to allow McW to post their corporate double tald propaganda, please take this down. The last statement is very telling, a 50 acre plus project, it was originally a 100-arce project. The truth is its now a 20 acre project anchored by a bowling alley.

We don't remove comments for editorial reasons as in whether we agree or not. McWhinney is welcome to post here, as are you, otherwise it wouldn't be an open discussion.

Like letters to the editor in a newspaper, blog postings are from the person creating the post and do not necessarily reflect our views. Before running the latest story about McWhinney, we invited them to provide any contrary information either as a link to our site or through the blog.

Fine, let this blog degenerate into another vehicle of McW propaganda like they currently use the Reporter Herald and the City Administration. Hopfully most of the folks on this blog are smart enough to know the difference. Rocky Scott makes his living off of lies and people like that end up never knowing the difference. I hope eveentually the City leadership will change and recognize the need for balanced, arms length public policy, a few steps have already been made and the next election will clean the slate and put McW in their rightfull place. Their propaganda, lies and abuse of public policy will eventually fall back on them, the first signs of that are evident in the corporate "realignment", downsizing of grand station and major purchase of a development interest outside of Loveland. Other signs were the repositioning of their corpoately onwned real estate a while back as sure signs they see the writing on the wall and will eventually fully divest themselves of Loveland. Good riddance to the dream team of Rocky, Lucia, and the brother's grim. Luckily I'm now in a position that I can just sit back, enjoy and feed the flames of their deminse in Loveland.

If I read the Febraury 14, press release by McWhinney above correctly, it acknowledges they lost a number of top executives and are now recruiting new positions but not replacing key Grand Station positions.

This tells me a couple of things;

1. The story regarding the departure of key folks and demise of Grand Station was essentially true.

2. The comment "With the substantial growth in opportunities that we are enjoying today at Centerra, Anthem and Garden Grove in southern California" conspicuosly excludes Grand Station and also qualifies the other developments as "growth opportunities" because nothing has yet started. Anthem, like Grand Station, is still just dirt but the fact another more experienced company is managing the overall opportunity gives it a better chance of success than Grand Station which McWhinney tried alone.


3. The Loveland City Council has accepted a "rebalancing" of the books to say they can afford to build an uphill sewer line to annex the 402 properties - these numbers included revenue from Grand Station so Don Williams' lofty assumptions regarding 2009 revenue will need to be corrected.
--Terry

Terry, not to dispute your analysis, its an intellegent look at things but these projects like Promenade and Grand Station really don't generate much net cash flow to the City. Promenade is only grossing about $1.5 million to the City annually because the City gave away so much of the taxes, half of the sales tax and all of the property tax goes to McW. Net of new service costs, the revenue is even lower. The fire station alone to serve McW is 600K annually to run. Bottom line is Grand Station, which had the same tax give away deal (which is only fair, right?) would have only maybe generated $1 million of the 2009 projection in general tax revenue and a bit more in one time use taxes (which they probably would have ended up giving away half of too to pay for that pricy choo choo and the structured parking when the cost overruns came in). The sewer for 402 would be paid out of the big capital reserves the City is sitting on. The actual problem the City has is not capital expenditures, they are cash rich in that respect (about $40 million), its the operating revenue to fix that pump station every year when it inevitabally breaks, pumping poop that far is just a bad idea and is going to cause on-going maintenance charges. More than likely too is that if they annex the 402 land, the City would cut a deal with Johnstown and send it to their low point sewer, but that would not come cheaply, the city would probably have to revenue share and that will only further deepen the effective subsidy. My message is that the City, by setting the precedent of being the loss leader in incentives in the region has entered very dangerous ground, the negative effects will not be short term, but more like 10 years out when these projects are obsolete, the revenue falls off, the real need for redevelopment hits, and they are upside down in their metro-district debt. The blame is not really on McW, though I frequently blog against them, its the City Manager's leadership and the lap dog Council that follows him in these deals. The City Manager's motivation is ego, he thinks sticking it to Ft. Collins in the short term is a big win for his ego and he gets to rub elbows with McW and the other big dog developers in town, behind his back they laugh at him which his ego is too big to see.

Thanks for that interesting information; you clearly know the topic of city finance much better than I do. Has anyone estimated the real cost of Centerra on all city services?

Did you read the Loveland Reporter-Herald article today (Feb. 15, 2008) on the McWhinney press release posted above? Our family couldn't stop laughing around the breakfast table – it was hilarious.

It would be like the Chicago Tribune reporting the Valentine Massacre as “7 new positions have opened up in an alcohol distribution company today.” The Reporter-Herald is becoming the laughing stock when it comes to news in this town since they appear to have no integrity.

A real estate development company losses their Senior VP of Finance & CEO, Director of Marketing and Director of Leasing (not to mention the others) due to restructuring? These are all critical executive positions that have nothing to do with restructuring.

What? They don't need a CFO anymore or head of leasing? This is preposterous and should be an embarrassment to anyone who is forced to peddle these lies to the public. How gullible and stupid do they think we are in Loveland?

Adding 13 new positions means nothing if people are not being hired. Throwing new job titles around the office like they were hot potatoes between the same few executives who are left is a strong indication the company is in trouble. Especially when nobody wants to be the CFO (sounds like Enron).

McWhinney could easily restore their reputation with this community by being more candid. Admit Grand Station was an ambitious and bold project that just didn’t work out. Tell people the truth! You are now shifting to discount type developments because that is where the market is going and you need more experienced partners to succeed because your in-house staff is inadequate. You tried Grand Station on your own and it didn’t work out so the financial after-shocks are hurting cash-flow. In the meantime, credible and honest people either walked out or were fired due to the strained financial situation and uncertain future.

People will respond better if they can just hear the truth for once. In the meantime, Rocky Scott has earned himself a lot of time in Purgatory (and I don’t mean the one in Colorado). At least with dog grooming nobody was asking him to lie.

--Terry

Interesting the regular on this blog, Councilman Ouch/Rousey hasn't commented.

It may be that our council knows more about this than they are telling.

Councilman Klassen's quote, "McWhinney is beyond reproach" when people questioned their plans on Grand Station will not soon be forgotten.
--Carol

I don't agree. Rocky Scott hasn't really changed jobs in so many years. He is still working to make dogs look good.

Now the dogs are just bigger and more important and his grooming techniques much more sophisticated.
--Grace

Geeee.....you people are really mean and need to stop this. Rocky is one of the most gracious and wonderful humans I have ever met.

While I am grateful you told people about this I am worried for the people who work there and hope nobody is celebrating their demise.

The McWhinneys are the nicest two boys you can ever meet and really quite humble and willing to talk with the ordinary people in Loveland.

While I don't agree with everything he said, JJ is right when he says people just don't appreciate everything the McWhinneys have done for Loveland. If Chad finally leaves it will not be due to his divorce but really because he wasn't appreciated the way he should be.

Troy doesn't really give a hoot about Loveland but Chad I believe was creating a vision for this little cow town the ordinary people just couldn't understand.

It is too bad but I think it really was due to the larger economy and all the foreclosures that they had to start shutting down the Grand Station project. If people are not buying houses and moving here there will not be enough people to shop or live at the Grand Station. I think it is this simple.

Thank You
--Kate

You either grow or die. It is that simple. Now we are going to die as a town.
--R.L.

Terry, I know a lot about the City finances because I was deeply involved with that until I got fed up with McW telling the City what to do. No, they have not looked at the full cost of services to McW, what they do is a financial model of the commercial projects exclusive of the residential and then say its a positive. If they modeled the service employment and residential influx to work at all of their low paying retail jobs it would be a huge negative so they just conveniently exclude the residential and the service cost of the low paying jobs. McW runs City hall. Don Williams does not scratch his butt without asking Rocky Scott from which side he should reach and how deep he should go and I mean that very literally. Rocky Scott does a lot more than try to make the McW dog look good. He is a classic influence peddler, and primary advisor to the administration and Council, he meets with person 1 and person 2 and makes 3 for McWhinney when they had none. Does it go farther than that, I can't say (here). He's fallen flat on his face with the choo choo train though and has to be feeling the pressure of this layoff, Chad is notoriously harsh when the job doesn't get done. The problem is they are soo deeply vested with him letting him go would be a major loss of face. If Rocky is reading, you must hate this blog, you can't influence it, control it or do anything to keep the truth from coming out, it must drive you mad. You can post your propaganda all day long and no one buys it anymore. By they way, do you want to know what my price is? You getting out of town. And to Kate, if you looked through that sickening sweet vineer of Rocky Scott, which you obviously have no ability to do, you would see just a plain old corporate influence peddler. I've worked with them and know how they really operate, I can't say here what goes on because of the rightful restrictions on this blog but get real, he's just a cheap local political influence peddler. As for Chad, they've been soaking Loveland with incentives that have made them rich off of tax payer money, how do you think they got the money to buy that new 900-acre site in Broomfield? Now their taking our money elsewhere and will leave us with obsolete malls in 10years that will leave the City broke.

To R.L. "grow or die" that's brilliant, how long did it take you to come up with that? Growth can come in many, many forms, cheap, quick and unsustainable or well conceived and sustainable. Pushing the edges and letting your core and corridors die on the vine is a cheap, quick and unstatainable way to grow that will eventually collaps. Few really oppose this stuff on the basis of growth, many do on the form and how the benefits are being distributed. Go drive by the Albertsons and take a look around there, drive behind it and take a good look, then look at all the vacant car dealerships and the aging neigborhoods and tell me that's a good result of the form of growth McW has given us. Grow or die, we've gotten both with McW, why not grow and live.

Thanks for your postings - they are very informative but you haven't signed a nickname - I suggest a number or something so we know when you post.

I hope you are still involved in the public sector but assume that may not be the case. I saw on the front page they take articles or guest editorials - if you have time you should prepare one on the TRUE COSTS of McW malls. That would be great!

Thanks again for joining the conversation. You are right, I do believe they hate this blog so I got a bumper sticker for my car to promote it!
--Terry

Carol: Just a quick response. I was out of state (Florida) for a short vacation (between council sessions) and now busy with the passing of my wife's mother. I really haven't had a chance to catch up on the recent postings.

Will be happy to do so as soon as things settle down a bit.
--ouch/rousey

OH good, Rousey is back. Now we will get some really good ideas, for me to poop on!!!!!

Seriously, folks, look back at what the thoughts and thinking are that you get with Rousey, just a simplistic, defensive regurgitation of the Council's actions, that's what we get with our public officials, not a drop of intelligence or depth of thought, which is reflective of the entire old guard group. Wake up Loveland and get a new Council and administration. I have watched this guy at Council meetings over many years and I can tell you that not once, not a single time did I hear an intelligent, thoughtful response, question or insightful comment. This guy is a dullard extraordinare and there is not a single one of them in the old guard group that rises more than a modicum above that. Is it any wonder that they defere exclusively to the misdirected leadership of Williams and Rocky Scott.

I wonder if they'll continue to pay Boucher a couple hundred thou' a year or if they'll decide that's an extravagance they can't afford any more?
--qq

Boucher is Rocky's middle man. He needs someone to do the real dirty work. Front men like that always need back-up behind the curtin. They are far from done in Loveland. Back to my original theme, one benefit that could come from grand station (lower caps because it has lost its luster) is that Whole Foods might take the old Alberston's site (which they have formally considered while grand station twists in the wind) and help revtalize the old 34 corridor. For those of you that watch this I predict this Council will instead give McW an incentive for it to go to McW's site at 34 and Boyd. Just watch. This council and administation will do anything for them, anything.

Did you guys know that Boucher's former cliwclients in New Hampshire did time in federal prison, or the Chad and Troy's father did time for accepting a bribe while Mayor of a California city? I've been forwarded articles on these by LovelandPolitics readers. Not that this indicates anything, but one would suspect ...
--Anonymous

Yes, Boucher has clearly had his fingers in the mud and if you notice the heritage page on McW's web page has never really been written and they never ever really talk about him, just the strawberry stand they had in CA and worked their way up, a few hundred acres of prime CA real estate from daddy helped. Papa was involved in an influence scheme while he was on the Council. What do they say, the McWnut does not fall far from the tree?
--Jerry

JJ said:
"Not all of us can grow sugar beats for a living Carl. People move to Loveland and want to roll-up the streets and not let anyone else into the city.

I never bring my business associates from out of state to downtown because of all the bums walking around (maybe your cousins Carl?)

We could have been the next Fashion Island, Costa Mesa or Broomfield but instead we are headed downhill just like Ft. Collins."

OK, JJ:
First of all, Fort Collins was named the best smaller city to live in in the US for several reasons. Fort Collins has excellent schools - my wife and I have lived in the Front Range for years and would not live in or send our children to school in Broomfield compared compared to what there is in Fort Collins. The Fort has a growing trail system and open spaces for recreation, an exellent selection of restaurants and office locations downtown, and an educated workforce making it the tech employment center of the region. Obviously Fort Collins has CSU. Fort Collins is not going "downhill" because it doesn't have Costa Mesa or Fashion Island - you are obviously from Southern California; nor will one Wal-mart at the north end of Loveland kill the Fort's retail tax base.

You are obviously concerned with what the government should do to create a strong economy. It seems it is the education and business clusters (for example, high tech, bioscience, clean energy) that make for a great economy - not Fashion Island (shopping center). Retail follows people, and "high end" retail follows people with money to spend. Educated people follow quality of life, good schools, recreational and cultural ammenities, nice neighborhoods & high quality infrastructure. So it makes sense that government should encourage these. In the case of Loveland, we should see ourselves as part of a regional Fort Collins-Loveland region centerred on CSU and the tech clusters.

As for saying Lovelanders are a bunch of beet growers and bums, I should let you know Loveland has hosted HP and tech facilities since the 1970s, and these people created a lot of wealth here - not the retail real etate developers who came later. Besides, Lovelanders should be proud of their heritage while looking to the future.

I know you'd like to see Fashion Island here in Loveland - well the reality is the market can't support it. Loveland crossed the 50,000 person mark and would've attracted Bed Bath & Beyond, Eddie Bauer, etc. anyway, with or without government subsidy. But, there's no amount of government subsidy that will give us Fashion Island, nor do we need it.

A bigger question is, what is the purpose of government? I maintain it is to provide infrastructure, recreational, cultural, & educational ammenities, a fair playing field for business, and basic services to strengthen families and assist those in need to become self-sufficient. Of course we need to maintain a sales tax base, but as long as Loveland's 50-60,000 people shop here, we need not worry. When government gets involved in land speculation and subsidy to real estate development, it may be playing with fire ...

Inceidentally, I went to the Open House for Lincoln Place downtown and didn't see any bums, but lots of young professionals and empty nesters.
--Going back to Fort Collins

To the previous posting about McW - how can Lovelandpolitics readers send you articles if you are annymous and didn't leave an email address? Next time, try the truth for a change.

No, I am not from Southern California but Nebraska. I lived in Southern California for many years and enjoyed shopping in Costa Mesa though we couldn't afford Fashion Island.

Councilman Rousey has been dealing with all the pain, loss and expense of his Mother-in-law passing and all you people do is poke fun and insult him? This alone demonstrates Loveland has too many hillbillies without compasion.

No, contrary to what you all say, the McWhinney's nor their father held any political office that I know of - I think you are mistaken.

The Northern Colorado Economic Development Council just added retail among their definitions of primary jobs. Lots of people make a good living from retail and like realtors contribute much more to the economy and culture than some HP nerd with mismatched socks and no social life.

People who work in retail and real estate are the life blood of our economy so you need to get used to it. If there is any reason not to rebuild Fashion Island here it is because of this website and all the hate and mistrust you spread about otherwise good and upstanding people who have done a lot for Loveland.

--JJ

By the way JJ, since you are new, Rousey insulted me and large number of folks on this site before revealing his identity and played games with his identity, repeatedly denying any inside influence for months. Yes, papa McW was a coucilman in CA in the late 60s and got himself in big trouble, I'll post the link again as I have in the past. As for retail being a primary job, bullcrap, and who do you think runs the NCEDC? Rocky and the McW. I am not even going to ague that one because its just rediculous. If you want my e-mail I'd be glad to post it for you. Just post you'rs and I'll forward it right away. Dumba__.

The idea of retail as a primary job is straight out of Rocky Scott's mouth. It is what he calls "import substitution" where you drag the retail dollars of another community into yours and thus retail is a "primary industry" because it imports wealth. That is about the most twisted thinking I have ever heard and likely to get you laughed out of any serious formum of economic development. Also, its short lived inevitably the losing community will gain it back in eventually, leaving you with a vacant mall. He has the Loveland Council like Rousey convinced of that but not anybody else. And, not even Rocky would call retail primary employment, the jobs clearly don't meet the criteria of paying above the prevaling wage and being benefitted. That's no reflection on the people that do those jobs but they are a drag on the local ecomomy, demand a high level of public service to subsidize food, shelter and medical services, all paid by government. JJ, you are dangeroulsy poorly informed, just like the Loveland City Council.

Here is the link to the case against Mayor Derick McWhinney and I've posted the citation and beginning of the opinion.

http://www.claralaw.cpda.org/om_isapi.dll?clientID=163791&infobase=cases3.nfo&jump=43%20Cal.App.3d%20454&softpage=Document_Case

People v. Fujita (1974) 43 Cal.App.3d 454 [117 Cal.Rptr. 757]








[Crim. No. 6125.

Court of Appeals of California, Fourth Appellate District, Division Two.

November 25, 1974.]

THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent, v. TADASHI FUJITA et al., Defendants and Appellants

(Opinion by Kerrigan, Acting P. J., with Kaufman, J., and Whyte, J., concurring.)

COUNSEL

Cohen, Stokke, Owen & Davis, Allan H. Stokke, Joseph A. Ball and Laurence F. Jay for Defendants and Appellants.

Evelle J. Younger, Attorney General, Jack R. Winkler, Chief Assistant Attorney General, Daniel J. Kremer, Assistant Attorney General, A. Wells Petersen and M. Howard Wayne, Deputy Attorneys General, for Plaintiff and Respondent.

OPINION

KERRIGAN, Acting P. J.

The Mayor and the Planning Commissioner of the City of Westminster were charged with attempting to "shake down" a prosperous farmer for $10,000 on the pretext of obtaining favorable treatment for him from the board of supervisors in connection with the extension of an agricultural lease on a valuable piece of property held by the County of Orange. {Page 43 Cal.App.3d 462}

The indictment against the mayor (Derek McWhinney) and the commissioner (Tadashi Fujita) contained five felony counts: (1) conspiracy to commit grand theft (Pen. Code, § 182, subd. 1); (2) attempted grand theft (Pen. Code, §§ 484, 487); (3) conspiracy to commit bribery (Pen. Code, § 182, subd. 1); and (4) and (5) solicitation of bribery (Pen. Code, § 653f).

Both officials were convicted by a jury of the two theft counts and acquitted of the three bribery charges. The mayor was sentenced to the state prison for conspiracy to commit grand theft, but was released on bail pending appeal. The commissioner was likewise sentenced to state prison for conspiracy to commit grand theft; however, execution of the sentence was suspended and probation granted on condition that he serve six months in jail and pay a $2,500 fine.

Ouch, that must hurt JJ - he is probably calling Rocky and Bullwinkle to find a response. Well, I wonder what lessons were being taught in that household where Chad and Try grew-up about "service" to the community. No wonder they don't wince at manipulation of the Council by Don Williams - public process may mean something different to them.

45% of Loveland residents work outside Loveland nearly making this a "bedroom" community. They commute to REAL primary jobs in Denver, Longmont and Boulder.

Those six-figure income earners are the ones who create prosperity in Loveland because they spend their salaries here enabling the local merchants to prosper.

McWhinney is just another retail/developer hound competing with everyone else for those limited dollars. They bring no value add just competition to existing businesses for the same limited dollars.

--Alex D.

Spell check, People. Try it! Although this Blog doesn’t provide this tool, you can actually type your rant in Word first and correct your typos.
Then you can simply copy and paste the text of your mean-spirited ravings in the Blog.

Before you do that why don’t you pull out a mirror and take a good long look at yourself. Then maybe take a deep breath and ask yourself if there is a point to all of this mudslinging?
What purpose is being served by this preponderance of negativity? What do these postings have to say about our ability, as fellow humans sharing this small piece of our planet, to extend compassion, patience, tolerance and forgiveness toward others with whom we don’t agree?

Whether you agree or disagree with what has been posted previously, perhaps you can respond without making a personal attack about one’s relatives or education.

At least consider the possibility.

--Will Powers

Mr. Powers, your question is easily answered. People are seeking the truth here and not your sugar coated ideal of what things ought to be. Your prejudice against anything negative shows a dangerous lack of reason on your part.

Good public decisions are not based in false niceties but instead upon a full and open discussion of all the facts. Councilman Klassen stated during a council meeting he didn’t need to ask the McWhinneys any questions because they are “beyond reproach” due to their family reputation. If their father was a corrupt politician, maybe those of you who believe they are diety walking among us need to re-examen your own value system.

Western civilization began with people who recognized that truth is essential to all reason, logic and good decision making. False logic, half-truths and outright lies have a difficult time surviving in an environment like this one. Unfortunately, our city government is a different matter since open dissent and speech is repressed.

Your blog posting appears eerily similar to what those who accused and eventually killed Socrates for wanting to seek the truth would say. Sometimes the truth is negative and when we are talking about people trying to access the public’s money – a dose of cynicism is very healthy to help us understand the entire picture.

Until I read about the failure of Grand Station on this website I thought it was a big project all on track from what the Reporter-Herald was reporting. Go back and read the articles – remember Hotel Valencia and all the other committed tenants. How about their start date of fall 2007? I leave you with this quote from Socrates-

“Well, as I was saying, they have scarcely spoken the truth at all; but from me you shall hear the whole truth: not, however, delivered after their manner in a set
oration duly ornamented with words and phrases. No, by heaven! but I shall use the words and arguments which occur to me at the moment; for I am confident in the justice of my cause”

--Walter

Will Powers suggests above - "why don’t you pull out a mirror and take a good long look at yourself. Then maybe take a deep breath and ask yourself if there is a point to all of this mudslinging?"

OK, I did. My father never corrupted a city process to make money, I am not asking Loveland taxpayers to finance ventures with future taxes instead of risking my own millions and my grandfather didn’t leave me with 4,000 acres east of Loveland. Oh, and I haven’t left my loyal wife for a hot young girl.

OK, wait a minute I am taking that deep breath……………Yes, of course there is a point. I don’t want these characters controlling my city or getting anymore taxpayer money for their projects!

Thanks, good idea.

--Happy With Myself

My friend anonymous: Yes, I insulted you..to which I said I was sorry...not because I was wrong but because I was rude.

You may wish to do the same.

Have you ever served on the council or even ran for a seat? It would be better to try to correct the problems you believe to be real than sitting back and cussing at the world.

I believe I know who you are but if not, I know what you are.

Here's what I know for sure:

Too many people would rather sit back and do nothing but complain.

Too many people refuse to consider the other
viewpoint.

Too many people are happier complaining than reaching agreement.

With most of you already deciding that Grand Station is falling apart, how many of you are willing to come back to this blog and post that you were wrong after it is built?

Anonymous, would you even consider saying you were wrong?

Remember folks, I invited anyone to call me or meet for coffee somewhere and discuss your concerns on this issue or any other issue.....as of now....not one call. I find it sad that you who complain the most won't take the effort to sit down and discuss the issues with myself or another member of the council.
--ouch/rousey

Rousey, irrelevant and pointless as ever. As fer the mudslinging. "Who da hat fit, let them wear it." That's not even a sentence, is it Will Powers? Not even close. But it speaks so loud and clear its deafening. People compelled to correct others in petty ways have no ideas of their own, all they can do is fall to some moral high ground and pick at others work when they disagree or feel insecure because they have nothing substantive to contribute. I have lived a highly moral life for two good reasons, my father and my mother. If you don’t think that’s relevant then you are ignorant. I guarantee you, and I know these people personally, they don't even see anything wrong with it. It's just business, just the way things are done. If I have an associate throw you a nice contract and I get some favorable consideration in return, that's not a crime is it? (The rest of them ARE just dumb by the way.) Everybody around City Hall whispers about out it. It goes so far beyond what the public sees, everybody knows something’s wrong, they just can't say anything or prove anything. And even if they could, they're too powerful. Any dissent or alternative thinking is immediately crushed by management and/or twisted to serve the master. Many I know share these beliefs but are even afraid to post here, for fear of being revealed. Trust me people, there's something rotten in Demark, and it aint the downer beef.
--Anonymous

Would someone please go have coffee with Rousey. He's starting to sound pitiful.

Mr. Rousey, for the record, the promise of Centerra was never kept by McWhinney. I can provide you both the drawings and quotes where Chad McWhinney promised Centerra would be nearly identical to Flat Irons Crossing.

Instead of a gorgeous indoor mall with a water fall and landscapes it is another flat outdoor big box retail where they didn't even bother to irrigate for the landscaping.

Now Grand Station was promised to be something it is not. If they put the Ft. Collins Mexican chow hall, bowling alley combined with a fitness center and a La Quinta Crappy Inn (like what you voted to subsidize in west Loveland)we will again be cheated.

Anyone can build crap along the I-25 and that is exactly what the few leasing people left working the project are probably going to sign-up just to save their jobs.

Yes, Grand Station as proposed (trolley and all) is simply dead and you know it.
--Carol

Give Mr. Rousey a little credit please. I just searched his name on the main page of LovelandPolitics and found this http://www.lovelandpolitics.com/councilnewsJune52.html

He did vote against adding 850 additional residential units to Grand Station while the others said yes.
--Walter

Anonymous: I don't wish to play "king of hill" but "dumb"? I'm 99% sure that I'm more intellegent than you....having different ideas and beliefs than you does not make a person "dumb".

I sincerely believe that Grand Station will be completed and will be of benefit to Loveland. Again, as I've stated before, time will tell and If I'm mistaken I'll be the first to admit it.

Carol: Centerra may be different that the original drawings but I find it still a very nice commerical development that's of benefit to the city. (not because of it being built by the McWhinneys but because of where I came from and what I had to live with).

Are we really saying that Centerra and the Shops are not good for Loveland?....I would hate to go back in time and not have the revenue or shopping in Loveland. Yes, incentives were given and they may not look like the drawings presented but would you really rather have them gone?

I guess each of you should ask yourself if Loveland is better or worse with having the Centerra development....I think we're better off...some of you would disagree.
--ouch/rousey

Anonymous: I don't wish to play "king of hill" but "dumb"? I'm 99% sure that I'm more intellegent than you....having different ideas and beliefs than you does not make a person "dumb".

I sincerely believe that Grand Station will be completed and will be of benefit to Loveland. Again, as I've stated before, time will tell and If I'm mistaken I'll be the first to admit it.

Carol: Centerra may be different that the original drawings but I find it still a very nice commerical development that's of benefit to the city. (not because of it being built by the McWhinneys but because of where I came from and what I had to live with).

Are we really saying that Centerra and the Shops are not good for Loveland?....I would hate to go back in time and not have the revenue or shopping in Loveland. Yes, incentives were given and they may not look like the drawings presented but would you really rather have them gone?

I guess each of you should ask yourself if Loveland is better or worse with having the Centerra development....I think we're better off...some of you would disagree.
--ouch/rousey

Sorry for the double posting.....not "dumb" just didn't see it posted after the first "post comment" enter.
--ouch/rousey

You can post all you want Rousey, nobody cares. That's the pinnical of your political career.

You can post all you want Rousey, nobody cares. That's the pinnical of your political career.

Anonymous: "nobody cares"....what a shame. I don't have a political career. Just someone who decided to run for city council and happened to get elected. Just someone who had an interest and took an active part in city government. Have you done as much?
--ouch/rousey

Your question relies on a false premise that absent tax subsidy the development would not have occurred.

The incompatible arguments the McWhinneys make is that we need to develop quickly to compete with 65 other developments along the I-25 (to capture tax dollars) but they can't develop without financing their project on the promise of our future tax dollars.

How can so many other land owners/developers be building without incentives in such less desirable locations?

Here is the real question, if McWhinney had sold to Poag & McEwen the entire project and it was developed without the commitment of 25 years of future tax revenues would we be better off?

Mr. Rousey, you have chosen to subsidies a few wealthy individuals instead of letting the market determine when and how these developments will take place. You didn't subsidize Centerra you subsidized the McWhinneys (your contributors perhaps?)
--Walter

Yes, and the most extraordinary thing is the magnitude of the subsidy, I've repeated them here before but they deserve to be repeated again, and again until Rousey choaks on them and the public hears. Fully half of the City's sales tax for 25 years, all of the City's property tax, all of the County property tax and most of the school district's, totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. The only promise of public benefit was contribution to regional road improvements, not mandatory, and to date only Kendall Parkway built through and benefitting only McWhinney property. Interim improvements at 34 and Crossroads will be too little to late. The same deal was given to Grand Station which it will take even if it turns out to be just a bowling alley and a motel. Andy Rousey is proud of that.

Walter: Would the city be better off if we had the same development(s) without subsidies? Yes. Would we have the developments if we had not given subsidies? I don't know. Council's belief was that the development would not have happened without the subsidies. Were we correct in our assumption? Again, I don't know.

Correct my if I'm wrong but I know of no other project the size of Centerra being constructed without subsidies being given.

If we eliminate the assumption that Centerra would still be there without incentives, are we better off with or without the development under the current financing agreement?

No contributions ever received from anyone, including the McWhinneys.
--ouch/rousey

Mr. Councilman - there is no other development in the country with as many acres as Centerra receiving a subsidy. As for private, I don't know.

To qualify your question, are you still assuming Grand Station is going forward? Last thing i read here was they didn't have the funds or external support to go forward. If so, you assumptions may be incorrect.

The Poag&McEwin folks said it was the largest single land subsidy ever since 4,000 acres are covered by the Centerra agreement.

Are you saying you never received any McWhinney money or nobody on council did? The latter would make you the laughing stock of our town since so much money flowed.


--walter

I've worked in development in four different states for 28 years, all in major metropolitan areas and have never seen a subsidy as deep as that given to McWhinney for that type of project. Typically, subsidies are given to overcome a difficult site development cost, to close the financing gap between what the private lender will give and what the actual project cost is, or to gain a higher quality project, like better architecture. In the community where I now work, a sizable subsidy was given to redevelop an obsolete regional mall, but the site had difficult cost issues, needed underground drainage, for example, and still the subsidy was no where near that given to McWhinney. For example, the City regained its original revenue stream and any revenue over a certain level and after 10 years all goes back to the City. This was also in a highly competitive urban market, much more competitive than the Loveland market. And the project is of much greater quality. Promenade is below average in terms of quality, mostly fake stucco and very little quality materials. Also, there were no special site development costs or constraints associated with the site. I have to say that Loveland's subsidy when into McWhinney's pocket, not the project and the Loveland tax payers were taken to the cleaners. What other pockets might have gotten heavier, we may never know but these things tend to come out in the wash over time.

To clarify a bit more for you Walter, you are asking what is called the “but for” question. You are asking “but for” the public subsidy, the project would not be feasible. Any community putting forth the type of subsidies offered by Loveland would spend a great deal of time and effort asking that question and justifying it, quantifying it very, very clearly for the public. Loveland does not, they don’t have a clue whether the subsidy they gave was necessary because they operate under a “good old boy” mentality of negotiation, what the City Manager recommends they pretty much go with. To any sophisticated, professionally managed City what Loveland did was unthinkable; it would never survive public scrutiny, because until now, nobody has asked any questions. That a City Council member could not refer you to the City supporting analysis of why hundreds of millions of dollars were given to a developer is the most extraordinary thing I have ever witnessed in my long career. Mr. Rousey is as I have said before totally ignorant. It would be unacceptable in any other place but a small town like Loveland that has let developers and its City Manager pretty much do as they please.

To elaborate on the "but for" argument, one needs to look at the market in which retail operates. I am told it is well-known in the shopping center industry that when a city reaches 50,000-60,000 people, it reaches the critical market size where the types of malls, such as Promenade, and stores (Bed, Bath & Beyond; Eddie Bauer, etc.) enter that market.
--Anonymous

Yes, you are absolutely correct, as soon as Loveland passed the 50,000 mark in the 2000 Census the big boxes started to come, Target, then Sportsman's Warehouse, Walmart, were first and the rest would have come without any subsidy, they always ask, Kohls asked and was one of the few told Loveland doesn't give subsidies to retail (which is an inside joke of course) and they came anyway and did a decent looking store. The reality is that retail on greefield ground in a good location and with a strong market needs no subsidy, none whatsoever. It's built all over the world every day without one penny of incentive. All that money went into the McW's pockets, again how much leaked out and to where we can only speculate about.
--Ignorant

If the company is "financially hurting" as most of you claim on here (including someone who claims to have "insider" info, which by the way, why are you scared to reveal who you are? probably because you are just full of crap), then how did the company just purchase 1,000 acres in Broomfield and is expanding with new projects in other states? Would a financially strapped company have the ability to do this? I don't think so. That purchase of Anthem in Broomfield must have cost them tens of millions if not lots more, not to mention these other new projects out of state. Unless you work for McWhinney and are Chad, Troy, Doug or some other executive who would actually know the current state of McWhinney's finances, I would refrain from making those statements or at least phrase them as "this is my opinion and not fact." I highly doubt even the majority of employees that work there would know the current financial state of McWhinney. This is usually information only for the eyes of upper management within private companies. Also, as far as Grand Station, I can't wait to see this place and be able to shop and dine there. I feel lucky and honored that the McWhinney's are bringing a place like that to Loveland and that it is not going into another NoCo City. I praise the City of Loveland and McWhinney for working together on making this a reality someday. I would think the current national economic crisis and pullback from retailers out of projects nation wide has a lot to do with the delayed timing of Grand Station, and not the "supposed financial crisis" at McWhinney. As far as the exodus of a few employees leaving, well it is only a few and did anyone stop to think that maybe they just got better job offers somewhere else? It's a crazy economy right now and there are employment changes going on everywhere you look. Sometimes people just change jobs for personal, family or finacial reasons. I heard McWhinney is up to nearly 100 employees now, and in a few years will have lots more than that. Did anyone just think everyone would work there forever? With 100 plus employees how can you not have turnover? No company has zero turn over and until recently I don't remember hearing about anyone leaving that company anyway. Maybe you all just need something better to talk about or do with your time. McWhinney has done nothing but improve the City of Loveland and will continue to do so. Maybe we should all try being nicer to them so they don't pack up and leave town and watch Loveland go into the crapper.
--Farmer John

Interesting earlier in the year a number of key McWhinney executives left the company, and this trend continues with the Company Coach's departure and the VP of Centerra. So far this year, the CFO, VP of Leasing, VP of Marketing, Manger of Grand Station, the VP of Centerra, ( manager of the MFA) have all left, with no named replacements. At least one leasing giant interviewed and turned the position down, so are we saving payroll or is something bigger at hand. Also still waiting for thise big announcements from Jack Wolfe about tenants for Grand Station?
--noshow job here

Interesting earlier in the year a number of key McWhinney executives left the company, and this trend continues with the Company Coach's departure and the VP of Centerra. So far this year, the CFO, VP of Leasing, VP of Marketing, Manger of Grand Station, the VP of Centerra, ( manager of the MFA) have all left, with no named replacements. At least one leasing giant interviewed and turned the position down, so are we saving payroll or is something bigger at hand. Also still waiting for thise big announcements from Jack Wolfe about tenants for Grand Station?
--noshow job here